In Episode 4 of BOOM! The Southeastern Commerce Podcast, city and chamber of commerce representatives from Nashville Tennessee, Jefferson Parish Louisiana and Columbia South Carolina speak with Adams and Reese attorney Chris Kane about what the next few months may look like from a perspective of balancing a return to work and public health.
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Transcript and Show Notes
Christopher Kane: Hello everyone. I’m Chris Kane with Adams and Reese in New Orleans. Welcome to this episode of Boom! The Southeastern Commerce Podcast, where we talk trade, economic development and business issues affecting the region. Today we’ll be talking about what the next few months may look like from a perspective of balancing getting back to work and public health. With us today are City and Chamber of Commerce representatives from Nashville, Jefferson Parish and New Orleans, Greater New Orleans Region and Columbia, South Carolina.
We’re going to try to get a better sense of how we even start to think about getting back to what the new normal looks like and what that duration and path is going to be for us to get forward. With us today we have Todd Murphy, who is the President of the Jefferson Chamber of Commerce. Zak Kelley, who is a Special Assistant to the Director of Finance for Metro Government of Nashville and Davidson County and Carl Blackstone, who is the President and CEO of Columbia Chamber of Commerce. Gentlemen, thank you for joining us today.
And just to set the table, you know, as we’re all experiencing quite a different experience in and of itself than anything we’ve ever dealt with obviously, you are each in a position where your members in your business communities are eager to get information on how to plan and what to do next. And we just got guidance out from the federal branch of government and the Trump Administration, and we’re going to talk about that and get an understanding of how we can utilize that on our local level and how you can play a part and your members can play a part in the business community to try to articulate what their needs are and balance what is important in terms of the greater public health issues that we’re all now dealing with.
We’ve selected really these three markets for a reason. Each of you are dealing with this experience in different levels. It’s been pretty well documented in the media that the Greater New Orleans Region has been a hotspot. And to that end, as we sit here, we’re closing in on 23,000 cases. The Greater New Orleans area has near 12,000 cases. When you combine the area parishes that make up the ten parish regions of the Greater New Orleans Metropolitan, that’s significant.
If you look at Jefferson Parish alone, it is nearing 6000 cases, which is almost equivalent to the entire state of Tennessee, who is around 6300 cases. And as we go through the next few days we’ll hopefully continue to see a flattening the curve down. And South Carolina is nearing 4000 cases. So we each come at this from a different – each of you come at this from a different standpoint as it relates to the impact of the public health crisis if you will. But we’re all dealing with the same issue because at any point in time we’re told by the medical experts and public health experts that if we don’t practice the correct guidance that we’re getting from CDC and from the federal government, that Nashville or Tennessee could turn into the next hotspot. Or Columbia, South Carolina for that matter.
So we’re all in the same situation in terms of getting reopened in a meaningful way, but yet in a manner that best protects the public health when returning back to this much more restrictive and very damaging from an economic standpoint stay at home position that we all find ourselves in. So from a starting point, what I’d like to do is for each of you to give us just a, you know, hey, state of the situation on the ground where you’re located so we can have a sense of a starting point to talk about where we go from there. Carl, why don’t we start from you and what’s going on in Columbia?
Carl Blackstone: Sure, thanks for having me. Columbia, or the entire state of South Carolina as you mentioned has been fairly decent as it relates to the number of cases. Right around 4000. The impact that we’ve seen though has been significant, both across the state, but in the Midlands especially, which Columbia, for those that are not familiar, is right in the middle of the state. We are a capital city, college town with the University of South Carolina there.
And so we’ve seen major disruptions throughout from a manufacturing standpoint, through the service lines and industries throughout have seen a significant reduction. Closer to Charleston with the port, obviously supply chains have been disrupted as well. We’re a large government town with a large military presence. We’ve seen a significant drop off of students leaving town, as well as military personnel having to interrupt their time coming to Columbia. Major disruptions.
However, I think we’re fortunate that we can get back to work fairly easily, and I know we’ll get into this, but that’s going to be the key part of this whole problem is, shutting down was hard enough. How do we open back up in a fair and a prudent manner? So I look forward to the conversation.
Christopher Kane: Thank you Carl. Zak, what’s going on in Nashville and Davidson County as we sit here now?
Zak Kelley: Sure, in Nashville we have somewhat of a unique situation, although there are other cities in the south certainly that are facing it. We had a series of tornadoes come through really at the beginning of when you started to see cities certainly in our area, starting to close operations down. So we’re dealing with really two ends of that. We have supply chains locally that were affected in their ability to provide by that natural set of disasters. And then we have also the revenue impact that came from that. And then on the back end of that we have COVID.
So our small business community here in particular has gotten a double whammy. And we as a city have had to respond to that while moving all of our operations off campus and remote. At the moment I think we’re just over 1200 cases have been detected here in Davidson County. We’re under a safer at home order until the 24th, although Mayor Cooper anticipates moving that to the 30th to be consistent with what Governor Lee has done statewide.
I certainly agree with what Carl says. Everybody is anxious to get back to work here. But the thing that we hear most consistently from our small business community and from our suppliers here is just that – the thing that they need is and that they’re looking for from the government and from health experts is some clarity. Because the last thing that they want is to go back into a, “normal situation” only to end up here again three months from now, because so many of them have had to adapt to this new environment. And it’s been a very scary situation for them in a number of aspects. So I think clarify is the one thing that we keep hearing from our business community, and I’m sure we’ll talk about more of that.
Christopher Kane: Yeah, and Zak, that makes a lot of sense. You guys – what, March 4th I think was when you had the major tornado there in Nashville, and I understand you had some more across the state as well as South Carolina, who was hit recently last week with about 16 tornados and a number of deaths. We’re in that time of the year too where we’re dealing with unfortunately some spring weather. Although both of those incidences were historic in their own rights. Appreciate that perspective. Todd Murphy, you are in one of the epicenters, as Dr. Birx has put it, and dealing with a lot. And luckily right now we haven’t had any weather events in the Greater New Orleans area because this has been a bear in and of itself. Tell us what’s going on in Jefferson Parish and what’s going on with the Chamber.
Todd Murphy: Absolutely. Thank you Chris. So Jefferson Parish, our county is the largest parish in the New Orleans region. We have about 435,000 residents here and roughly 18,000 businesses. Unfortunately we have as of yesterday 5300 cases, and sadly 261 deaths. However, I will tell you that we’ve not only flattened the curve, but the curve is headed down. So we have two more weeks, we’re just urging everyone to be patient for two more weeks, and we think that at that point we’re going to make a move to get some businesses back open.
We’ve had several discussions this week, and I guess the one really strong point that we have here in our parish is, we have a great partnership between the business community and the elected officials and the medical community. And so we’re having great conversations with all three legs of the stool if you will. And there’s a lot of trust there of how do we do this? How do we systematically reopen? We’ve had a lot of storms. We’re used to hurricanes, and we’re used to bringing industries back and sectors.
And so we’re having those conversations now of how do we do this that makes sense? Certainly we want to get our restaurants back open. Right now they’re pick up or drive through only. We want to get our hospitality and tourism industry moving again. So how do you do that? And so those are the things that we are working on as a business community, what makes sense? I mean, obviously you can’t have a large gathering right off the bat. But maybe we can have restaurants opening with social distancing and tables spread apart. Maybe the wait staff wears masks. And so those are some of the things that we’re starting to look at now.
But our business community by and large is getting very antsy. They’re ready to turn the lights back on. We’ve had three weeks of how do I get loans? How do I take care of my employees? How do I pay my rent? And I guess everyone’s been dealing with those issues. But I think now we’re starting to hear, hey, we need to get back to business. We need to get the economy back. And we’re willing to work to do that, but at the same time, we want to make sure we’ve got a healthy community while we build that healthy economy. And so it’s really a balance to do, to put all that together. But again, I just can’t emphasize enough, it’s been great for us because we have this great partnership. And no one individual or one organization is calling the shots without that collaboration.
Christopher Kane: Well thanks Todd, and we go back to mid-February perhaps, we were hearing about the Coronavirus. It was on the news and maybe in the paper. But since then we’ve all become our own quasi experts in epidemiology and how these viruses spread and how they attack really our society. And that’s what happened here, and we’re dealing with it. And you’re right, there needs to be a path now that we have, what appears to be, and let’s knock on wood, in all of our regions as a nation, to have a hold on it, at least from a standpoint of controlling the explosion of new cases.
And that’s what really, if you look at the guidelines that were set out as the gaining criteria for helping states and local municipalities consider phasing in a reopening. It makes sense, right. You’re looking at symptoms and what direction are you experiencing new symptoms and/or or a downward trajectory of influenza like illnesses and symptoms. And then the cases that we’ve had documented. I thought Dr. Birx did a really good job of explaining how that curve works and the distance between really testing results and where we actually might be on the curve, was a little – of all of this might have been a little more of a glimmer of hope than otherwise seemed with the continued devastating news in terms of death count and understanding that really any single life is one too many of course.
And then third, which has really been I think a critical component that we in the United States seem to have been able to manage. It was dicey and questionable at the time. But it’s the hospital capacity and the ability to treat within this crisis and to be able to have the ability to maintain a healthy healthcare workforce, have equipment there. And there are challenges there no doubt, depending where you are. But those are really, as been built out, the criteria that’s being looked at to determine when and how you can phase your path forward. And I’ll start with you Todd. We here in the Greater New Orleans area, having been hard hit, we may be a little bit behind than Tennessee and South Carolina from a standpoint of getting really to the point where we have a 14 day true downward turn.
But as you mentioned, we seem to be seeing that in Jefferson and Orleans Parishes. And so the question that I have is, to me, what’s going to be really critical for an area like the Greater New Orleans area or areas like we see in the Northeast, is a regional approach. Because if you open up in Jefferson Parish all of your barbershops at one time, but in St. Charles Parish, which is to your west and Orleans Parish which is to your east is not opened, where is everybody going to – everybody’s going to go there to get a haircut. And it’s going to be not coordinated. And so what are you hearing and what are you seeing, not just your relationship relative to your parish present, but from a regional perspective, and what can we do to make sure that’s coordinated?
Todd Murphy: Sure, I think that’s really good points, and obviously you’ve seen a recent photograph of me because I desperately need a haircut and I would be first in line for that. And actually we’re hearing that a lot, just some of the things that men and women both just took for granted, from health clubs to salons and barbershops.
And so you’re right, it needs to be a regional approach. And I do know that we are working on a plan here, but I’ll also tell you that just earlier today we had a call with all of the Chambers in our region, our parish president is having calls on a regular basis with the parish presidents in other parishes. And it’s our hope that we do have a regional plan put in place. I think quite candidly, some of the frustration I guess we have is that the city of New Orleans is really the driver of the economy. That’s the driver of hospitality and tourism.
And so to some extent we’ve been a little beholden to what the City of New Orleans does or says because, as kind of an example you used, when we were closing things down, if they made the decision to close all restaurants, well then we had to close restaurants or we were just going to create bigger crowds, and then potentially put stress on your police department because you’ve got overcrowded bars. Because there’s none open in New Orleans.
And so we’ve got to look at that, and we’ve got to look at a regional approach. I think what you’re going to see in our area, Jefferson Parish is the largest parish in the region, it’s going to try to lead that recovery, working with City of New Orleans leaders and other parishes around the region. Certainly is a challenge, but it really has to be a regional approach, and at the same time we have a governor that is doing a really good job. And he’s in tune with both the healthcare aspect, the number of cases, the hospital capacity. I mean, I have to give him kudos. He’s really been on top of this whole situation.
And so as much as a region is that we can cooperate with the governor, work with the governor and yet understand too that there is a necessity to open up the private sector. And unfortunately that sometimes gets lost in government. Sometimes our government elected leaders don’t really understand the private sector. And so I think that’s where we as business leaders have to kind of tilt that pendulum a little bit, so that we can open up our economy again.
Zak Kelley: This is Zak. I was just going to jump in there and say as a – I can only speak from the finance perspective and say that we’ve, certainly from the revenue side of things, we appreciate what the private sector brings to the table. Director Crumbo, our Director of Finance gave an update earlier this week, and there are two things I would say. You have to look at this certainly from a regional perspective because so much of our workforce in Nashville comes from outside of Davidson County. Anything that we do here obviously affects what happens in the Greater Metropolitan area, and the converse of that is true as well.
When we look at our revenue numbers for last quarter and for the next quarter, Director Crumbo says you’re looking at a $200 to $300 million revenue drop. So that could be by the end of our fiscal year you’re looking at a quarter of a $2 billion budget gone. That money doesn’t just appear out of thin air. Those are businesses that generate that revenue. And so you’ve got to at some point have a balanced conversation about what bringing back the economy and reopening the economy, although I don’t particularly love that term, but you’ve got to have a balanced conversation about what that looks like.
I think that in Nashville Mayor Cooper has done a nice job of working with Governor Lee to strike that balance and to talk about what that looks like realistically in terms of, you know, there is not going to be a normal that you – we wake up one day and it’s going to be gone. But that it does look like social distancing. It does look like kind of what it looked like in the days leading up to everybody being locked in their home. Maybe there are fewer people at restaurants. Maybe it’s just curbside. Maybe we have reduced capacity at events. But I think everybody here anyway has recognized that there’s got to be some flexibility in what we’re doing now because this is not a sustainable model in the long-term.
I also want to give a big props to the – in terms of New Orleans too and here, both being big hospitality industry towns, the hospitality industry, at least here and I’m sure in New Orleans as well, have been, and really across the entire state of Tennessee, have been phenomenal partners for government and for everybody else throughout the tornados and everything else. When we had shelters set up, they were the ones providing food. Oftentimes before government could get in there when schools have been unable to provide lunches. In Memphis you see Kelly English and some of your top chefs there who are stepping in to fill that gap.
And so these businesses are the ones who are often more adaptive than we are in government. And so certainly where we can enable them to get back to doing what they do best, we want to do that as quickly as possible.
Christopher Kane: Yeah, no, I appreciate that Zak and that’s the life blood of New Orleans candidly, and Orleans Parish specifically is so attuned to – it’s budget sensitive to the tourism dollars, particularly the sales tax related to tourism. And that budget concern is not only real, but it’s already very visible. I think the last number we heard was about $150 million deficit and counting. So we’re seeing that as a real issue, and I can’t agree more in terms of balancing that opening up and trying to figure out what that looks like.
Carl, from South Carolina’s perspective and perhaps maybe South Carolina is closest of the three, although Nashville is in relatively good shape too, but perhaps closest to really starting to implement the phase one if you will of these three phases that’s been outlined by the federal government. What are you hearing and seeing and how is the return to work looking like in Columbia?
Carl Blackstone: Well, we’ve got a lot of questions. I think there are more questions than answers right now as we continue to meet and discuss reentry and trying to find the normal lifestyle again. I think manufacturing is going to bounce back fairly easily in the pent up demand that they have. They’ll be clicking pretty quickly. But is it safe to have the same number of workforce where you have to stagger that in? Those are questions that have got to be answered by corporate folks as well as some guidance from the health professionals.
When we look a little bit further into restaurants and retail, I feel like those owners have to be a little bit more patient because there’s a lot more concern. Does it mean – what do your employees need as they come back to work? Are businesses going to be responsible for personal protection equipment to your employees? Are you going to have to – if you’re in a retail establishment, are anybody coming in the store need to have PPE? What does the supply chain look like for those pieces of equipment? If restaurants are opening up, do we need to – is there going to be a 25% capacity, 50% capacity? And some are going to say, hey, it’s not worth it for me to open up if it’s only 25% capacity.
So there are a bunch of issues we’ve got to work through. But I think everybody is eager, overly eager quite frankly, and I think one of the things that we have to keep telling our partners and businesses around the Columbia region is, even though we’re getting closer to opening up, we’ve got to do it in a staggered approach. We’ve got to be responsible in how we do it. And again, that’s just going to wear on folk’s patience a little bit. But I think the approach of the White House is smart. How we do it and the implementation mode that goes into effect with that, we’re all trying to figure that out as well.
Christopher Kane: Yeah, and really the life blood of this entire process has been all of the businesses and really the American citizens adhering to the guidelines and recommendations that have been put in front of us since the last now pretty much month and a half. If you look at it from a standpoint of what they required us to do and buy into the science, which I think we’re getting as much information as we can as quick as we can, it seems to be working. They told us that they wanted to bend this curve, and it seems to be bending and now on its way down.
If you follow this guidance through and take the hotspots out for a second, so Zak and Carl, this may be more attuned to what you may experience sooner than what Todd is going to experience in the Greater New Orleans Region, the three phase concept appears to be basically three sets of fourteen day periods and times. And if you make it through that period, that you come out on the other side in what is phase three, I guess is kind of the temporary normal until we have a vaccine, or until we have different data points on the medical front, right.
I know we cannot possibly really predict what that looks like. But in your mind and talking to your businesses and constituents, how is that going to look for a tourism industry, the music industry in Nashville? And how does that look for kids coming back to Columbia in the summertime getting ready for the fall semester? What are your thoughts and predictions? Carl, you can start off.
Carl Blackstone: Yeah, I think those are good questions and ones that I’ve been on the phone today as a matter of fact talking about. The biggest concern we have is the university and how they come back to school. The board of trustees have met this week, and they’re going to make a decision by June 15th on the fall semester. But the issues they have are – or at least the medical data has signaled that this may have a – COVID may have an issue with heat and humidity, which is great for New Orleans and Columbia and Nashville too because the Southern – we don’t have a problem with either one of those.
But if it does come back though in the fall, without some vaccine or some way to slow it down, what does that mean? So I think the university, we have about 37,000 students in downtown Columbia. That’s a big number for us, and it drives a lot of the small businesses. More importantly, what does that mean for college football? And that’s the bigger question and more divisive than anything. The information that we’re getting is slow, but it’s good data now. We’ll have a better projection probably in six weeks about what the fall looks like.
Since we’ve never done this before in our lifetime, it really does set us up for setting some precedents, and actually I think there are a couple of people that have mentioned how times of crisis bring people together and figuring this stuff out. There’s no right answer all the time. We clearly know there’s wrong answers. But what’s the best option at the time with the data that we’ve presented? And so data is king. There’s going to be a lot of classes taught on the reactions and how different communities responded to this disaster in states as well.
So we’re looking forward to the reentry. I do think though the phase-in approach and having a new norm by summer, it’ll be great. But the worst thing that we can do is fall into a level of complacency and have another bout of this in the fall. I think that would be horrible, both for the psyche, but also for the economy.
Christopher Kane: Yeah, I agree Carl. And to your football point, the only saving grace every time I hear about the potential of whether or not football in the fall, is an LSU Tiger fan, that just means we get an automatic extension of our defending national championship status {laughs}, which I don’t want. Which I don’t want. Zak, what’s your thoughts?
Zak Kelley: I’ve given up on trying to do any type of predicting beyond a week, much less into the summer or fall. I think that it would take somebody about five and a half seconds to figure out what the politics of myself and most people in Nashville are. So that’s not hard. But one of the things that’s come through this in Nashville is that we have a governor and a mayor who are from opposite ends of the spectrum and have worked extraordinarily well together. And the thing that I’m afraid we’re going to see going into the summer and the fall is a polarization of this process and a politicization of how we need to move forward, or a politicization of looking back on what happened.
And I think that that is one of the more dangerous things that we could see going forward. Because what we’ve got to do is we’ve got to look at this in a smart and a balanced manner. Because if anything outside of that, I think you’re putting your economy, you’re putting your public health at risk. And at the end of the day, I think that – I don’t think that we can predict what’s going to happen with college football. I’m a Vols fan, so if we had a few years to regroup it wouldn’t hurt my feelings, just in general.
But I think that one of the things we can predict that is going to come out of this is that there is going to be a lot of conversation around what does new normal look like? And one of the things we haven’t touched on is what does that kind of safety net look like for your small businesses? What does it look like for your hospitality workers, for your gig workers and your self-employed? These groups that at this point the government is kind of being asked to step in and rescue. And I think that – and for your frontline workers, and what is a frontline worker in this kind of economy? And those are the questions I think we’re going to wrestle with over the summer and the fall. And I don’t know what the end game of that is going to look like, but beyond that I couldn’t make any predictions at all because I have no idea what the next week is going hold, much less a season from now.
Christopher Kane: Well, you’ve raised two I think very critical points, is that COVID-19 does not hold a blue card or a red card. And I have been impressed candidly by putting all the typical posturing aside, which we probably all agree we could live a little bit without, the coordination between a number of the folks in the federal level and our states, regardless of party affiliation, I think has been encouraging. And it’s something we’re going to need. We’re going into obviously a significant election year, and I agree with you Zak. We need to, I think as a business community, we need to make sure we hold folks accountable to not let the politics interfere with our ability to reenter into these various phases of our economy. Because there’s only so much that candidly we can do on the other side of the equation from a subsidy/facing that perspective.
And so if we get it wrong, it’s going to cost us more in the long run. So I think that’s well pointed. Todd, from your standpoint in the Greater New Orleans area, we may be looking at a longer window. But some say maybe because we got hit early and are coming down sooner, that that window may not be as long as some predict if we keep a very good discipline and follow the guidance that’s put before us. Now what are your thoughts where we’re going to be and what is going to come out of this that will be positive for your members in terms of lessons learned from being stuck working from home now the last five, six weeks?
Todd Murphy: Sure, I think it’s certainly going to change the way that we do business and the way that we have fun. Let’s face it, I agree with Zak though, I got out of the prediction business a long time ago. But at the same time, I agree with what Carl said, in that we have to get it right. We have to phase it in properly because the last thing you want is to have a relapse so to speak in the fall. But I think that people understand just how dangerous this is. I mean, I just got an update, and we’re up to 269 deaths now.
To put that in perspective, our parish or county to most people, had 60, six zero, automobile fatalities in 2019. So we had 60 car deaths in a whole year, and in 4 weeks we’ve had 269 deaths from this virus. I think people understand the severity of it and that we really need to take this in phases and take it slow. At the same time, I understand the anxiousness. But I think when the dust settles so to speak, people are going to adapt to a new way of working. I mean, you may have more flex time. You may have more people working at home. I hope that that doesn’t hurt commercial real estate.
But I think through this we’ve learned that we need to be able to work remotely, and that in some cases it’s worked well. It’s certainly been different. But it’ll be – this will be something that I think we just have to phase in. And just like through the disaster we went through with Katrina and Rita and Gustav and other storms that have come through, we’re always learning. I think the advantage we had of this was those storms. We had a lot of knowledge about banks and SBA and what to do and what not to do.
And at the same time, 15 years after Katrina, we have much better technology where we’re able to have video conferencing and audio conferencing and even texting that we didn’t have then. So we’ve come a long way, and I think hopefully as they say, it makes us stronger.
Christopher Kane: Yeah, no, and that to me – we’re looking at right now the most significant disruption in the marketplace in American economics history. And when you think about it that way, typically you have disruption by industry or by technology that is related to one industry. And this has disrupted the entire economy. And as a result of that, and just history will tell you that, technology emerges and efficiency emerges, and there’s some pain in that. And there’s going to be a whole slew of services and products that are going to be no longer – that are going to be obsolete. But there’s going to be new ones that come into play.
You see – and I’ve got right now as we do this podcast, I have a nine-year-old daughter who is being taught through technology by her school teacher with the very good help of my wife of course. And that didn’t exist six weeks ago in the minds of most of us, right. So this is going to be transformative in many, many ways.
Well guys, we’re closing in on the end of our time. And one thing we do on the Boom podcast, and it’d be particularly fun to do today, because it’s something we probably have not been able to enjoy in the last few days, but I want to go around – the last few weeks, I want to go around the horn. If I was in Nashville or Columbia or in New Orleans with you today, what restaurant are we going to? What cocktail are we going to get there? And what are we going to eat? Let’s talk about something positive and give ourselves something to look forward to. Carl, I’ll start with you.
Carl Blackstone: First place I’m going is Halls Chophouse. I’m going to – they have a plethora of good drinks. I’ll probably get the Halls Manhattan to have a cocktail and then a Kansas City bone-in. Man it’s getting my mouth watering just thinking about that right now.
Christopher Kane: That sounds good. Zak, where are you taking us?
Zak Kelley: I can tell you where I’m going for lunch today, which is the Rosepepper Mexican Cantina in East Nashville to have their house margarita and their white cheese buffalo dip.
Christopher Kane: Nice. Todd, where are we going?
Todd Murphy: Well, you know I’m a beer drinker. So you always call me the cheap date. {Laughs} I’ll tell you, we have 1200 restaurants in this region, and there’s so many great choices. I’m not exactly sure where I’m going, butboiled crawfish is in season right now, and we are certainly enjoying that here, boiled crawfish, boiled shrimp. It’s all on the platter everywhere you go. So it’ll be a great weekend.
Christopher Kane: Sounds good. Well look guys, I appreciate your time. I know it’s very – a lot going on right now and you’re – to take your time out of the day to come talk to us, give us some ideas, experiences, what you’re dealing with is really invaluable and I appreciate it. So thanks again Todd Murphy, Zak Kelley and Carl Blackstone for being our guests on today’s episode. Thanks for listening, and we’ll see you next time.
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